International Game Developers Association
<Rhiannon> Welcome!
<JohnEvans> Good eeeeeeevening.
<Rhiannon> What say we start a few minutes late to give people time to remember and join up?
<Rhiannon> (Or fight with IRC clients)
<TonyWalsh> Sounds good to me :)
<JohnEvans> Yep.
<AndresQ> no problemo
* Rhiannon * The time is now 18:00.
Pub: #arg_sig TonyWalsh JohnEvans AndresQ thatGrrl &imbri shaze Karen @colin|afk ~Rhiannon @catherwood
*** #arg_sig : End of /NAMES list.
* catherwood makes coffee
<Rhiannon> I just worry Europe is getting the short end of the stick here
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<Rhiannon> Timezone-wise
<JohnEvans> Yeah, 'bout midnight over there, at least...
<colin|afk> maybe make it an hour earlier next time?
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<shaze> yes it is midnight for me in France
<Rhiannon> Yeah, it's an idea
<Rhiannon> Maybe even go 2 hours earlier and see if it's too early for a weekend in Australia
<colin> 8:00am on sunday isn't nice, but it's do-able
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<Rhiannon> And we don't plan to do this every weekend
<AndresQ> I thought we'll be more on the room
<colin> exactly
<imbri> yeah, that's the time that we used to do the so ya wanna be a puppetmaster chats
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<imbri> and it worked out fairly well
<Rhiannon> OK, I guess we should get this party started, then.
*** Channel Users Topic
*** #arg_sig 11 [+ntr] IGDA ARG SIG Chat Here! Bring your visions for the future!
*** End of /LIST
<Rhiannon> First, I'm Andrea Phillips. I'm here on behalf of the leadership council, as Adam Martin won't be able to make it, and I'm not sure whether Evan Jones will be in or not
<AndresQ> what's the agenda?
<Rhiannon> It might be nice if we all introduce ourselves before we crank through the agenda
<Rhiannon> So we can connect listnames to posting names
<colin> mines the same :)
<TonyWalsh> ditto
<Rhiannon> AndresQ: The agenda is just what I posted to the list, no changes - let me find the URL real quick
<imbri> i am not the same. i'm brooke thompson on the list (and in life)
<AndresQ> I'm Andres Quijano from Argentina, I work in a small advergame development studio and I'm trying to do what I think will be the very first ARG in ARGentina ;)
* catherwood is a lurker
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<catherwood> i hang out on IRC and #unfiction and the unforums all the time, here to facilitate and log chat and spy ;)
<Karen> Karen Westerman from Kimera Mobile (not registered yet) and i´m trying to do the same as AndreQ in Mexico
<finicky> hehe, hello all! This is Christy
<Rhiannon> This is the agenda: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/arg_discuss/2007-February/000520.html
<TonyWalsh> hi Christy
<JohnEvans> I guess I'm a lurker too...I'm an aspiring game designer interested in all sorts of game development, especially games that let the user(s) be creative and have input...
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<finicky> hello Tony :)
<Rhiannon> OK... while I guess from a formal IGDA perspective I'm moderating, here, I don't want this to be *too* formal.
<Rhiannon> If anyone has anything to say at any point, please speak up about it :)
<shaze> I'm Olivier Buisson from France. Currently working to develop my first arg and also may be the first arg in french
<AndresQ> quick question: will this chat be logged and posted on the list ?
<Rhiannon> I'm excited about all of these ARGs in non-English
<Rhiannon> Andres: Yes, that is definitely the plan
<AndresQ> great
*** Topic for #arg_sig: IGDA ARG SIG Chat Here! Bring your visions for the future!
*** The topic was set by Rhiannon 4682 sec ago
<Karen> yeya
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<colin> Welcome wendy
*** Rhiannon has changed the topic on channel #arg_sig to IGDA ARG SIG Chat here! Bring your visions for the future! | Chat log will be posted to arg_discuss | Agenda here: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/arg_discuss/2007-February/000520.html | Please introduce yourself when you join
<Rhiannon> How's that?
<wendy> am I anywhere near the righ ttime?
<TonyWalsh> That's good -- do you mean intro with short bio, or just our real names
<Rhiannon> wendy: Close enough, we're just getting started :)
<TonyWalsh> Wendy: afaik
*** Rhiannon has changed the topic on channel #arg_sig to IGDA ARG SIG Chat here! Bring your visions for the future! | Chat log will be posted to arg_discuss | Agenda here: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/arg_discuss/2007-February/000520.html | Please introduce yourself by your list name when you join
<Rhiannon> ?
<TonyWalsh> heh
<Rhiannon> I don't think we need full CVs or anything
<TonyWalsh> :)
<wendy> global time zone synhcing can be crazy
<Mike_Stein> Ah.... I didn't see that bio bit when I logged in. I'm Mike Stein, a grad student at USC's Interactive Media Program.
<Rhiannon> Mike: It wasn't there :)
<Rhiannon> OK, first up on the agenda: Call for volunteers
<Rhiannon> The SIG *needs you*
<finicky> I'm Christy Dena, I did the 'ARGs & Academia' section of the whitepaper
<wendy> also, typing on this IRC client . I will swtich then intro.
<Mike_Stein> Volunteer for what, specifically?
<Rhiannon> It's my understanding that Evan Jones will be stepping down fro mthe leadership council
<Rhiannon> If anyone is interested in volunteering their time and energy to makign the SIG whatever it is we agree that it needs to be, please! Volunteer!
<Rhiannon> We need at least one more member for our leadership council
<Rhiannon> Two would be nice
<AndresQ> what would the volunteer/s do ?
<Karen> I´m interested... how many hours a week?
<Rhiannon> Actual activities would be, say, moderating IRC chats, organizing meetups or helping to present papers at conferences
<Rhiannon> Changing the IGDA web page and so on
<AndresQ> location is not an issue? (for the papers and coferences I mean)
<Rhiannon> Karen: It's not a steady commitment, sadly
<imbri> i would also be willing
<JohnEvans> I'd like to help too.
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<AndresQ> I'll gladly volunteer :)
<Rhiannon> There are weeks where nothing happens, and then there are weeks where you sink dozens of hours into it
<Rhiannon> OK, great :)
<Rhiannon> I'm glad to see people interested :)
<JohnEvans> :)
<wendyd> I'm Wendy Despain. I'm currently working as a freelance game writer, but have run several sponsored ARGs in the past, related to television shows.
<shaze> i'm also interested but not for meetings or only for european meeting
<Rhiannon> *nod* I don't think that location should be a problem, really
<Rhiannon> Except in findign a time to communicate with everyone else
<shaze> ok
<wendyd> I'd like to know more about what the SIG is about before I promise much time to it. :-)
<shaze> great
*** Signoff: wendy (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/)
<Karen> i´m not very tech-savy so i´ll help with the non tech stuff
<Rhiannon> I'll have to talk to Adam - I'm not sure on the exact number of people we need, so we may need to arrange an actual election
<Rhiannon> Which, hey, exciting considering it was pulling teeth to get people to volunteer last year :)
<wendyd> I've been a member of the SIG for a long time, but the agenda made it sound like there was going to be some kind of discussion about the direction?
<Rhiannon> Yeah, that's a lot of what the discussion is about.
<finicky> This is probably something that blends into the next topic, but can the ARG SIG have chapters or something per country too?
<TonyWalsh> Are there enough members per country to justify chapters?
<Rhiannon> Last year was pretty experimental for us, and a lot of the point of this chat is to look at what we did last year and see what we need to change
<Rhiannon> Yes, what Tony said
<wendyd> as I understand it, from being a member of other IGDA sigs, we can make this SIG whatever we want it to be, organized in whatever way works best for us.
<colin> the igda as a whole has chapters
<Rhiannon> I guess you could organise sub-chapters if you really wanted to, but I suspect the membership would be.. sparse...
<finicky> Ah right.
<Rhiannon> Is it primarily a language concern?
<finicky> I was thinking more in line with getting ARG awareness and education events happening in countries other than the US.
<Rhiannon> That would be *fabulous* if you'd like to volunteer to do it ;)
<colin> fwiw: http://www.igda.org/chapters/
<finicky> I think there is only Colin and I in Oz.
<Rhiannon> Asking your local IGDA chapter if you can do a short talk at one of their meetings could be a good start
<wendyd> it might be nice to coordinate that kind of effort
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<JohnEvans> Hm, I could do that at a New York City meeting, probably.
<finicky> Yes, that is what I mean.
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<Rhiannon> Before we get to specific actions too heavily, though, let's get back to the agenda for a minute
<Rhiannon> Last year, as I said, we were brand-new and not sure how to do what we wanted to do.
<finicky> yep, sorry!
<Rhiannon> What we wanted to do may not have been the same for all of us, either
<Rhiannon> So my impression of the goals of the SIG are:
<Rhiannon> * Providing a forum for ARG developers to talk about the stuff that affects us all
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<Rhiannon> * Evangelizing to the greater game developer community about ARGs
<Rhiannon> There are a lot of other goals that have been floated in the last six weeks or so, too.
<Rhiannon> So let me ask you guys, as a group, what do we think the SIG's purpose in life should be?
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<wendyd> I think those two main purposes are great, but I'm not sure how effectively they can be combined
<TonyWalsh> Would it be of interest to provide a means for developers and players to network, share knowledge and experiences? Or is this pretty much developers only?
<wendyd> ARG developers need a lot of privacy to "talk amongst themselves" - but there's a wide range of people interested in evangelizing the form
* Rhiannon * The time is now 18:30.
<TonyWalsh> (and if it's developers only, are we including grassroots developers?)
<Rhiannon> Tony: That actual brings in another thing we need to talk about :)
<Rhiannon> There's been a lot of concern over who is and isn't allowed to join
<Rhiannon> My feeling has been that people who are interested in the development angle should be able to join regardless of credentials
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<Rhiannon> A grassroots developer is still a developer, in my eyes
<TonyWalsh> I don't mind either way as long as its clear what the admission criteria are, personally.
<imbri> i agree with tony
<Rhiannon> The player question is a little dicier, I think
<wendyd> I don't think anyone really wants to exclude grassroots developers.
<catherwood> does the IGDA have any say on what constitutes "membership" versus just interested participation in a SIG?
<Rhiannon> Because a big fear originally was that we didn't want players spamming the list looking for clues
<imbri> see, i think that "anyone interested in the development angle" includes a large number of players
<Rhiannon> Oh, you absolutely don't need to be in the IGDA to participate in a SIG
<imbri> especially if you are saying that "grassroots" is ok
<Rhiannon> imbri: Yes, I totally agree with that. :)
<imbri> a large number of grassroots developers are young, are students, and are - most importantly - players
<Rhiannon> The opnly point of exclusion was, I think, intended to be players who would intend to be playing on the list
<wendyd> I'm not sure players would spam the list looking for clues
<JohnEvans> Maybe it's more useful to say what the SIG is for...i.e. it's not for playing, and then let people decide for themselves.
<wendyd> but in ARGs there's definitely a front and backside
<catherwood> then Tony's question about "admission criteria" is moot if just "showing interest" makes you a member
<Rhiannon> And there might be some fear of not talking about what a developer is actively doing because it'll spoil the surprise
<TonyWalsh> catherwood: agreed
<Rhiannon> But yeah, I think the "being interested in the behind-the-scenes" should be the criteria
<Rhiannon> I don't think there's really any basic disagreement here beyond semantics
<TonyWalsh> Perhaps instead of admission criteria we have a set of guidelines for participation (does one already exist?)
<JohnEvans> I don't think the SIG is the right place for talking about stuff that's truly secret and surprising...it's just too public.
<Rhiannon> No, no guideliens ofr participation
<Rhiannon> (Sorry for the bad typing)
<wendyd> well, here's an example. Someone asked on the list last week (?) how people keep themselves organized while/for running a game
<imbri> as long as the list is open and archives viewable to anyone, i have a feeling developer talk will be minimal
<wendyd> nobody answered
<Rhiannon> Do you think we should form them? Along the lines of "Job lisings OK, trailheads not"?
<imbri> not only are there player concerns
<imbri> but there are client concerns
<wendyd> not because we don't stay organized
<Rhiannon> Yeah, that was me
<Rhiannon> I have a logn history of trying to start threads in which nobody bites.
<Rhiannon> Do we think people are quiet because of those public archives?
<TonyWalsh> Part of the reason I don't reply more often is that the reply requires more time than I have at any given moment.
<imbri> i know some people are
<Rhiannon> Would everyone here be more comfortable posting to the list if they were not public?
<wendyd> well, one reason I didn't answer is because I don't want avid players digging up my post trying to get clues about how a game I run might play out
<Rhiannon> I'm not sure whether or how we could close them, so it's kind of a theoretical question
<Rhiannon> For all I know the IGDA has a policy on that
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<imbri> about development concerns, probably
<TonyWalsh> I think a private list would be harder to administer.
<imbri> andrea - a number of the other sigs archives are viewable only to members
<wendyd> personally, I'd be more comfortable if there were no archives - not even private ones
<Rhiannon> wendy: We'll never be able to stop anyone from storing mail :)
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<Rhiannon> See: Raph Koster posting the complete mud-dev archives
<wendyd> I know
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<JohnEvans> I think if you want to be paranoid about who's going to read it, just talk to people you trust directly...
<Rhiannon> Thanks, imbri :)
<TonyWalsh> Yeah, I agree with John, I think we have to assume the list could be read by anyone.
<wendyd> well JohnEvans, why didn't you answer the question about organization? :-)
<imbri> no problem :)
<wendyd> I'd love to know how other people keep these things organized
<wendyd> but i'm not sure it's the kind of thing we can discuss on the internet
<TonyWalsh> I use a spreadsheet the size of a wall
<TonyWalsh> really
<Rhiannon> So I guess those first two agenda questions are tied together - what the SIG is for and how to encourage development
<Rhiannon> er, participation
<JohnEvans> I just use a bunch of sheets of paper, and then a few random text files. Not too exciting. :P
<wendyd> great, thanks for answering now - but why didn't you pop it in an email?
<TonyWalsh> Because I get about 300 emails a day and work on multiple projects :)
<wendyd> i think we can't answer the question about participation until we understand why people aren't participating now. my reasons may not be others reasons.
<Rhiannon> Yeah.
<wendyd> so what you're saying, Tony (and maybe others?) is that the format of an email list is maybe not even the best way to go about fostering a community of ARG develoeprs?
<Rhiannon> I know I sometimes don't respond to questions because I'm afraid I'll give something away that I shouldn't
<catherwood> a member-only message board (with email notification) is a good solution
<TonyWalsh> wendy: I'd prefer a message board instead of mailing list, personally. easier to group related topics.
<imbri> wendy: if it's dealing with development issues, i'd say the way to do that would be with a private list
<Rhiannon> So: I don't want to say that I use kGTS or whatever for fear it opens me to some sort of security vulnerability
<imbri> which is, i don't think, the route the sig should take
<wendyd> I think this brings us back to the main goals - what do we want to accomplish? then we can figure out what tools will work the best.
<JohnEvans> http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=220
<TonyWalsh> Hey, look! A forum!
<TonyWalsh> " Sticky: Posting to this forum - consider the mailing list"
<Rhiannon> The forum had become a wastland of spam
<TonyWalsh> Spam from registered users?
<Rhiannon> (Again, so sorry for my horrid typing, I have a sleeping infant on my lap)
<shaze> could the forum only be access to the igda's members or also public ?
<wendyd> the SIG doesn't _have_ to use the resources provided by IGDA if they don't fit what we need.
<JohnEvans> I think anyone can read it but only IGDA members can post.
<AndresQ> spammers somehow avoid everything and always get to spam
<Rhiannon> Adam in an earlier email to me says:
<Rhiannon> we closed down the igda forums because it only
<Rhiannon> contained viagra and porn spam - they have too-weak anti-bot
<Rhiannon> protections - and there were no "real" posts.
<TonyWalsh> hmm
<JohnEvans> Some of the other SIG forums seem active.
<catherwood> good forum software allows multiple levels of access: open to public, open to members (anyone can join), or closed (apply to join), and all 3 tiers on the same board
<Rhiannon> I bet we could get a couple of people to police the forums if we felt that was the way to go
<wendyd> so if the official IGDA forum doesn't work for us, we could set up and run our own somewhere else.
<JohnEvans> Yeah, I've set up a couple PHPBB forums that do that.
<wendyd> or use people for the solution instead of tech :-)
<Rhiannon> wendy: I know you're in other SIGs, does anyone else do that?
* catherwood volunteers to clean spam posts daily
<wendyd> the ones I'm on don't use the forums very much
<wendyd> but I happen to know one doesn't even host their website on the IGDA host
<imbri> but if we're going to a forum for added privacy and security
<Rhiannon> Hm, OK. Good to know.
<imbri> a spambot wouldn't be able to get in
<wendyd> and one uses several Yahoo groups instead of the mailing list software they have
<shaze> i am currently working on system and network administrator and if you want I can setup a forum only for the SIG
<Rhiannon> if we can get volunteer resources, I don't see why the IGDA would object
<wendyd> IGDA's goal is to help us do what we need to do
<wendyd> not stand in our way
<wendyd> they mean that
<Rhiannon> It seems like the idea of moving to a forum rather than a list is pretty widespread among the people here, do we want to have a show of hands?
<TonyWalsh> <-- hand
<wendyd> (I don't have a preference, forum or email)
<imbri> i would NOT want to move to a forum
*** Channel Users Topic
*** #arg_sig 16 [+sntr] IGDA ARG SIG Chat here! Bring your visions for the future! | Chat log will be posted to arg_discuss | Agenda here: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/arg_discuss/2007-February/000520.html | Please introduce yourself by your list name when you join
*** End of /LIST
<wendyd> I think before we decide what tool to use, we should decide what the point of the SIG is
<Rhiannon> Back to that :)
<AndresQ> agreed
<imbri> (unless i understood the reasoning for it)
<colin> i prefer a forum structure, but i don't know if it suits this group
<imbri> i have too many forums to keep track of - i like getting the email, it's easier
<Rhiannon> There's one thing I'd LOVE but I can't see a way to make it happen
<colin> I think the SIG can act as an independant source for information on ARGs, I'd like to see it do more of that
<shaze> with the forum we can make a section for the evangelisation of Arg. This section will be public and a private section for developpement question
<finicky> It seems the ARG SIG has a few interest groups: developers (veteran & newbies), academics, educators, players?, media...
<Rhiannon> I wish there were a place to say "Gosh, I screwed up X in my plot and now Y isn't going to work, do you have ideas to fix it?"
<wendyd> colin: you mean like doing some public relations for the genre?
<Rhiannon> This is what I wish there waas
<Rhiannon> But... security reasons...
<colin> yes sort of wendyd
<TonyWalsh> colin, aren't there independent web sites that already do that?
<colin> it could have press kits etc on the genre
<imbri> yeah, in my ideal SIG, it would be a gathering place of people (players, developers) interested in meta level discussions on the genre and working to evangelize it throughout the world
<Rhiannon> I just don't see a way that specific kind of conversation could happen in the open.
<JohnEvans> Not in the open, no...
<TonyWalsh> 10 Rhiannon: 01 Yes, private is better for that.
<wendyd> okay, here's my problem with the private option
<JohnEvans> I expected the ARG SIG to have discussions about techniques of ARG development...the craft, and the art.
<imbri> andrea - #pmguide ;)
<wendyd> it encourages cliques of people who happen to know each other, all sharing best practices, only with each other
<wendyd> if I'm not in the "in group" I don't learn how to improve my craft, even if I'm a pro
<Rhiannon> But even "Hey, do you use omnigraffle or excel or what for storyboarding?" would be great, and threads like that go unanswered
<Rhiannon> Would it be helpful for us to start an ongoing chatroom, with the understanding that none of it gets logged ever ever, for that kind of discussion?
<wendyd> i would love to improve my craft, and one way to do that would be to interact with other developers
<Rhiannon> (Not to steal #pmguide's focus, mind you)
<wendyd> again, I think you're moving to the tools question too soon :-)
<TonyWalsh> 10Rhiannon: 01 do you mean a private or public chatroom
<Rhiannon> Sorry :)
<imbri> heh, yeah, cause that's exactly what that channel is
<AndresQ> I would love to see scripts from previous ARGs, what they did, how they did it, etc
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<wendyd> I think it sounds like you and I want the same thing in the end, Rhiannon - a community of developers?
<imbri> more of a grassroots focus, primarily because that's who's hanging out in irc
<Rhiannon> Yes, community of developers.
<wendyd> okay, so that's three of us
<TonyWalsh> 10AndresQ: 01 I can't reveal much of that sort of stuff due to NDAs.
<Rhiannon> imbri: I think a commercial team might have more problems with talking about that kind of thing outside of the company
<imbri> yes
<wendyd> but i think the commercial teams could learn a lot from the grassroots teams
<Rhiannon> So I might not be able to *ask*
<AndresQ> i supposed... and a post-mortem like ?
<imbri> and that's why i think it's a problem to make that the focus of the list
<Rhiannon> But I'd love to be part of those conversations
<wendyd> well, what I see happening right now is that there is already a clique of "in" people who know each other as developers
<wendyd> they talk to each other at conferences, and through email, etc.
<wendyd> private emails
<Rhiannon> Hmm.
<Rhiannon> If there is, it isn't me. :)
<colin> maybe the way around is more in-real-life meetings?
<Rhiannon> Are we close enough geographically for that?
<wendyd> and since this already exists, I think it would be okay to formalize it - and improve on it by creating a "way in" to this club
<TonyWalsh> wendy: are we talking about admission requirements?
<wendyd> ARGs necessarily have a front of the curtain and a back of the curtain
<Rhiannon> I know, for example, I can't travel. Heck, I couldn't make a meeting outside my backyard for the next few months.
<Karen> lol
<wendyd> yes, I think I am Tony
<wendyd> though I'm sort of thinking on the fly
<Rhiannon> Tony: She's talking about non-SIG conversation that exists today
<imbri> see, to me, i think that something like that would be great
<Rhiannon> wendy: I'd argue with you about the curtain thing, but that's a topic for another day :)
<imbri> a closed private list where people can talk about such stuff
<wendyd> I think there may be a place for a private discussion, walled off with as paranoid security as you want, but also with a formalized way for new people to join the discussion
<imbri> form bonds, network, help each other solve various problems, get advice, etc etc etc
<imbri> but that does not seem to reflect IGDA
<TonyWalsh> Again, I don't mind if the list is private, provided the admission criteria are made clear. Also there will be complaining about being exclusive, etc.
<imbri> which, i think, is more open
<Rhiannon> Not to be tiresome, but we all agree that kind of developer community is what we want the SIG to do, somehow?
<colin> most igda groups aren't like ARGs
<finicky> It sounds like you need to create another list.
<wendyd> most games aren't like ARGs :-)
<colin> you can talk about coding without compromising the contents of your game
<Rhiannon> Yeah, points to colin
<imbri> heh, christy, i'm really thinking that I do and that i'm in the minority
<wendyd> if our number one goal for the SIG is to create a community of developers, I think we need a) privacy and b) formalized entry requirements
<Rhiannon> it's difficult to talk about an ARG from a development point of view without spoling too much
<TonyWalsh> Rhiannon: I think I'd prefer developer-only in a private list, and possibly a public list that's open to all.
<Rhiannon> wendy: Where does this leave the highly interested player?
<TonyWalsh> (But I think it will be tough to say who gets into the "club" and who doesn't)
<wendyd> if our number two goal for the SIG is evangelizing the form, that could be a different list (or forum or chat room) without exclusivity
<TonyWalsh> wendy, that's what I think could work
<Rhiannon> There's some interest from passionate players in talking about the PM-player relationship, right?
<wendyd> are any of them here tonight? :-)
<imbri> no
<imbri> a few are out of town
<wendyd> too bad
<imbri> marie, for example, is in india
<Rhiannon> wendy: I think evangelising the form doesn't need to happen in the list/forum at all
<imbri> she had offered to help run the chat
<wendyd> well, I have to say.... the Unfiction forums exclude developers..... why can't we have a place where we exclude players?
* Rhiannon * The time is now 19:00.
<imbri> UF does not exclude developers
<Rhiannon> I think that's more the other stuff we produce - wikis, papers, talks
<TonyWalsh> I suspect developers find a way in to those player-exclusive areas :)
<imbri> it excludes developers talking in character
<wendyd> yes, but they don't post as developers
<imbri> sure we do
<imbri> i've posted there a number of times as a developer
* catherwood is not a developer
<wendyd> yay! we do have a player here! :-)
<Rhiannon> There's a meta section on UF, yes?
<imbri> yes
<colin> i don't know that UF should be a reference point for what the SIG does
<Rhiannon> I think, wendy, the UF terms of service are about not PMing *your game* on UF
<imbri> and once a game is concluded, developers can talk in those threads as often and about whatever they wish
<Rhiannon> Don't post as characters in your game's forum
<Rhiannon> That kind of thing
<wendyd> okay, I"m obviously not expressing this very well
<finicky> OK, have you resolved to have a list where the developers can talk amongst themselves?
<Rhiannon> The intent of UF is to facilitate the play of games, right?
<colin> yes
<imbri> yes
<colin> Can we not use UF as an example of what the sig should/shouldn't do?
<wendyd> i just mean that there must be some way we can express to players that some exclusivity is required sometimes
<Rhiannon> And the intent of whatever the SIG does would be facilitating the creation of games, I think
<MountainGirl> but perhaps let those wishing to join make the call for themselves, rather than have admissions requirements. For example, have an agreement that once they join the discussion they are legally bound by the guidelines of non-disclosure.
<Rhiannon> So there might be some overlap of interest, but no need to model the one on the other
<finicky> I think you need a private developer list but the ARG SIG list is also one in which craft conversation happens. Do both.
<Rhiannon> MountainGirl: The problem we're trying to solve is that we aren't comfortable talking very much out where everyone can see it
<wendyd> i don't want to imply binding legal agreements where there are none
<MountainGirl> not legal per se
<imbri> will the sig's only focus be on development?
<colin> hope not
<finicky> I don't think it should be
<Mike_Stein> Are the majority of ARG SIG members also ARG developers?
<Rhiannon> Development covers a lot of territory
<Rhiannon> Mike: I think a lot of them are people who are kind of interested in what ARGs are and want to know more.
<wendyd> so.... since the SIG has two goals (developer community and evangelism)
<wendyd> or did we not all agree on that?
<Rhiannon> A few aren't clear in the difference between an ARG and virtual reality games...
<wendyd> do we need an official vote?
<TonyWalsh> Do we have quorum?
<Rhiannon> Tony: We can assume that we can take actions based on this chat
<TonyWalsh> Ah, ok
<Mike_Stein> If we had a private ARG list, I suspect the larger ARG SIG list is going to die out.
<Rhiannon> Post the log to the list, give the list a couple of days to come up with a good reason why not, and then just go for it.
<colin> yes that could be a problem Mike_Stein
<Rhiannon> Well, the list itself isn't the important bit
<imbri> yeah, i agree with that as well
<imbri> it's the conversation that happens
<imbri> ?
<Rhiannon> The important part is finding a way for the SIG and the IGDA to foster that community of developers
<wendyd> does anyone disagree with the two goals of developer community and general ARG evangelism?
<Rhiannon> The tool, really, is meaningless
<Rhiannon> ...
<Rhiannon> Looks like no?
<TonyWalsh> <-- agrees with the 2 goals
<Rhiannon> :)
<shaze> i am also agree with the 2 goals
<finicky> There are also alot of academics and educators.
<Rhiannon> That's true.
<imbri> i am not in agreement
<Rhiannon> I hadn't considered that.
<Karen> what comprises the developers community... ????
<Rhiannon> OK, what additional goals are we looking at, or what goals do we not want the SIG to have?
<Karen> discusing one´s projects and getting feedback..??
<wendyd> yeah, that's something i would consider developer community
<Karen> ok....
<JohnEvans> If we create a developers' community, we assume they use it for stuff like discussing projects, techniques, getting feedback, asking for help, discussing theory...
<Karen> so how do you go on and do that... w/o the paranoid????
<imbri> i stated my goals above but they are in direct conflict with a developers only group
<wendyd> since I'm not an academic or educator, can anyone help me understand what they might be interested in using the SIG for? using ARGs in education? Teaching how to build an ARG?
<Wjkilleen> Wendy: essentially
<Rhiannon> imbri: I'm sorry, do you mind repeating for me?
<imbri> and looking at args and how they fit in the scheme of cross media
<catherwood> academics, game theorists, they would be in the public "evangelist" section
<finicky> Creating ARGs in schools in corporate environments
<finicky> study of the form, the craft, its history etc
<finicky> etc
<wendyd> well, those seem like evangelism to me
<wendyd> but maybe we're understanding the term differently
<imbri> that i thought it should facilitate communication between those interested in the larger meta issues facing the genre
<TonyWalsh> Does evangelism also include business aspects such as attracting corporate clients, using ARGs in marketing, etc
<imbri> for example, we're rapidly losing our history
<catherwood> the SIG wouldn't *be* developer-only, but have a developer-only sub-section for the non-disclosure discussions
<imbri> players can't take up the share of that on their own
<Rhiannon> Tony: I'd consider that development, personally
<imbri> the sig would be a place where that could be resolved
<finicky> I like * meta * SIG imbri
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<imbri> and that serves the interest of the academics, the players, and the developers
<imbri> setting up ways to archive and preserve articles (press and academic), game histories, etc
<Karen> agree
<imbri> getting out into conferences (that's an academic's role as much, if not more, than a developer's)
<Rhiannon> It sounds a bit to me like fostering the developer community can't happen in the same place as some of these other things
<finicky> I would also like to see another ARG research & educators list happen as there is a lot of conversation not happening because of the same paranoid issue developers have...
<finicky> Why Rhiannon?
<Rhiannon> finicky: Because development is generally a very secretive process. Developers won't discuss it out in the open where anyone can see.
<Rhiannon> That's why the current list is so very quiet, I think
<wendyd> well, maybe we should formalize it into 3 goals..... 1) developer community, 2) artform evangelism, 3) artform education
<finicky> I thought that is why you're going to have 2 lists?
<Rhiannon> not due to lack of interest so much as fear of prying eyes
<wendyd> just for organization sake
<Rhiannon> Wherein "education" would include that preservation of history?
<AndresQ> will someone actually post their secrets to the developers list ?
<Karen> wow... 2 much paranoia in this sig... ( i know i am)
<Rhiannon> Andres: If it feels well-secured, then maybe :)
<wendyd> i might not post the last chapter of my mystery novel, but I'd like to post the one in the middle where I introduce the red herring and be able to say, "this is a red herring, does it work?"
<wendyd> but i obviously don't want players to see that this is a red herring before the game ever begins (or after it begins and they do a quick google search)
<catherwood> wendy, depends on if you want the opinions only from fellow writers or from potential audience as well
<Rhiannon> Trading the behind-the-scenes war stories from the thing you just did last night... :)
<wendyd> for the benefit of the players as much as my own benefit
<wendyd> i don't want to ruin the fun for the players
<Rhiannon> Well, and not for nothing, but it might be nice to have a place to gripe without offending people, too.
<catherwood> a non-writer might comment if they don't plan to read your novel (play your particular game) but still from a player/reader point of view
<Rhiannon> "Grrr, JoePlayer just totally spoiled my whole next arc with that one post, I hate that guy!"
<Karen> for instance... i find that business models are particularly intereting.. and i´m trying 2 work in proposal which might help all of us get our arg´s funded.... still i posted an email this week and got just 1 answer....
<TonyWalsh> Even on a private list, I wouldn't swap behind-the-scenes stories, as I would assume there's at least one player who has infiltrated the list.
<Rhiannon> This is not conversation you'd want to have where JoePlayer can Google himself and find it ;)
<TonyWalsh> Karen, your query required a very detailed response.
<Karen> sorry for the d-tour
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<Karen> so maybe it could be open to discussion....
<Karen> maybe no one has the response just yet, but still it would be worthwhile exploring...
<wendyd> Tony, are you interested in sharing your behind-the-scenes stories?
<catherwood> definitely keep google from indexing the list
<Rhiannon> After the game is over, maybe?
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<TonyWalsh> Wendy, I can't share any stories that aren't already in the public eye.
<TonyWalsh> Due to legal obligations.
<Rhiannon> Would you enjoy reading the experiences of others? :)
<Rhiannon> I know I would.
<TonyWalsh> Hell yes
<wendyd> heh
<wendyd> we can't make everything perfect for everybody, but maybe we can make a pretty good thing for most people
<Rhiannon> And I'd probably feel a lot happier posting that kind of stuff to a more closed list.
<Rhiannon> Or a closed forum
<Rhiannon> Man, my poor sorry agenda :)
<finicky> Posting to the email list feels like talking to a packed hall
<catherwood> (time check?)
<Karen> yes
<Rhiannon> So let's go for a vote again, are we more or less agreed on goals of 1) community of developers, 2) evangelism, 3) education?
<wendyd> i'd like to get to know more of those people
<TonyWalsh> agreed
<Karen> agreed
<shaze> agreed
<finicky> where does research fit?
<JohnEvans> agreed.
<Wjkilleen> education, I would think
<AndresQ> agreed!
<Rhiannon> Well. Is *research* a goal of the SIG? Researchers could be interested in becoming educated or evangelising
<Rhiannon> I suppose it depends on the researcher...
<finicky> Creating ARGs in education for training is not the same as researching an ARG
<imbri> i still think that there should be room for non-developer level stuff
<finicky> but doesn't matter
<imbri> but i won't poke anymore about it
<catherwood> evangelism is non-developer stuff, no?
<Rhiannon> imbri: This is the meta-angle of providing a place for players and developers to live and talk together in peace and harmony? :)
<wendyd> i'm assuming evangelism would include a very wide audience
<finicky> perhaps too wide
<catherwood> depends if you are preaching to the game developers to build more ARGs, or preaching to consumers to play more ARGs
<Rhiannon> I think, too, that that might come down to tools and admissions criteria, the how
<imbri> and non-players, non-developers
<imbri> there are plenty of those
<Rhiannon> How about this:
<imbri> i just think there should be a place for the genre
<imbri> sans roles
<imbri> and this is igDEVELOPERSa
<wendyd> I think within each of these larger goals, they can be broken into smaller, more focused goals - such as evangelism to the masses verses evangelism to traditional game developers
<Rhiannon> Let's focus on those three goals for *right now* and talk about adding more going forward?
<imbri> so perhaps this is not the space
<Rhiannon> We can always add on and change things, nothing is written in stone
<Karen> i think evangelization is within mkt and releasing more arg´s .. so it´s the same thing
<TonyWalsh> folks, I have to log out, thanks for the productive discussion and have a good weekend
<Karen> targeting a larger audience.....
<wendyd> thanks for the input Tony
<Rhiannon> OK, looking at the agenda, we've already done a lot of talking about the how to encourage participation in the SIG
<finicky> I like any angle that is related to development works: practitioner, educator, researcher
* TonyWalsh salutes
<catherwood> educating the people who PAY for your ARG is a good target
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<Rhiannon> Heh :)
<Karen> totally
<Rhiannon> For goal 1, it looks like experimenting with a more private list or forum is something we should try going forward?
<Karen> let´s start w that...
<wendyd> well, if the general public were more educated about ARGs I don't think there would have been a bomb scare this last week in Boston.
<Rhiannon> Something tells me that's a discussion we don't have time for right now :)
<wendyd> so i'm a big fan of evangelism and education
<Rhiannon> But hey! Do post that to the list!
<wendyd> yeah, sorry
<AndresQ> I found Troy and the development document, a very helpful guide for ARGs
<AndresQ> maybe we can do something like that in a greater scale
* Rhiannon * The time is now 19:30.
<AndresQ> to show what ARGs can do
<AndresQ> and how are they done
<wendyd> one thought would be to have a person or committee in charge of each of these goals
<wendyd> so people know who to go to with ideas
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<Rhiannon> That's a great idea.
<wendyd> I don't swim well in the acadame pond, but we do seem to have several people who do
<wendyd> and could head up the Education part of our goals
<Rhiannon> Do you think that would encourage more than the "post to the list your idea" policy we have now?
<wendyd> yes, I think so
<wendyd> i think things only get done when people feel ownership
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<Karen> AndresQ: i´m with u on that issue
<Rhiannon> OK. Any other thoughts on tool and participation, or should I move on quick-quick?
<finicky> I think your idea is great wendy. I think that should be put to the whole list for volunteers.
<wendyd> I think each committee should be allowed to come up with their own solution for what tool works best for getting their goal done
<Rhiannon> I'm trying to get through the formal agenda stuff in a hurry and then open up to whatever further discussion we feel like having tonight
<AndresQ> thanks Karen :)
<Rhiannon> wendy: The biggest problem I forsee in this is getting volunteers to do it
<wendyd> that's all my thoughts on tools and participation
<Rhiannon> This has historically been a problem for us, getting volunteers and then getting follow-through
<wendyd> well, i'll volunteer for some of it
<Karen> we should probably talk AndresQ....
<finicky> I"m happy to volunteer as well
<Karen> i volunteer for the research and academia w/ someone´s help
<Rhiannon> OK, cool.
<wendyd> let's be optomistic Rhiannon :-)
<wendyd> optimistic?
<Rhiannon> I don't know how deputised on Adam's behalf I am to say "let's make committees"
<wendyd> however it's spelled
<JohnEvans> optimistic, yes. ;)
<wendyd> well, i think we should propose it on the current mailing list and see what happens
<Rhiannon> But if it's up to me, I say: "Let's make committees, one for each goal, we can put a call for volunteers onthe list."
<Rhiannon> I sense a lot of posting about misc. things in my future
<Rhiannon> So.
<wendyd> we love you Rhiannon :-)
<Rhiannon> About current SIG projects!
<Rhiannon> Heh, thanks :)
<Rhiannon> We did a white paper!
<wendyd> yay us!
<JohnEvans> *fanfare*
<Rhiannon> There is strong interest in issuing updated white papers!
<wendyd> heh, yes there is!
<Rhiannon> Do we want to split it up into smaller segments and issue those over the course of a year?
<Rhiannon> ...am I losing you all of you..? :)
<colin> i think before doing a new version we need to look at the goals of the whitepaper
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<wendyd> i think maybe each committee should be in charge of deciding how a whitepaper best suits their goals
<Rhiannon> The original and primary goal of the developer was providing a sort of basic education for an audience of traditional game developers
<wendyd> think of it as another tool at our disposal, instead of a thing we HAVE to do
<Rhiannon> er, goal of the paper
<Rhiannon> I think that this goal was not as broadly understood and agreed-upon as it should have been, and that caused a lot of people a lot of grief
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<Rhiannon> Going forward, w ecan do whatever the heck we like.
<Rhiannon> Things like an overview of games would fit under goal 3, and that's been moved into the wiki, which is a better place for it
<wendyd> i say we kick it to the committees :-)
<Rhiannon> Heh, sure :)
<Rhiannon> Also: I think having this IRC chat has been really great. I think we should do such a hting more often.
<Rhiannon> Quarterly? Monthly? Whatever. Just not annually.
<wendyd> i know one SIG that does it once a month
<wendyd> i like that model
<wendyd> personally
<Rhiannon> Yeah, I would, too
<JohnEvans> Sure, I'm up for more chats.
<finicky> me too
<Rhiannon> I uspect with time we'd get a lot less existential
<Karen> yeya
<Karen> lol
<wendyd> one can always hope :-)
<Rhiannon> There's meeting space for the SIG reserved in, well, a corridor at GDC
<wendyd> can't we meet at the IGDA booth?
<Rhiannon> Adam wanted me to try to get some sort of actionable goal sorted out that we could achieve by GDC, and also talk about whether we'd be happiest publishing or presenting things at GDC, PICNIC, ARGfest, or what have you
<Rhiannon> wendy: As I will not be there I kick your question to Adam, email him about what the plans are :)
<wendyd> heh, ok
<AndresQ> if anyone feels like donating a flight ticket to the GDC... :P
<Rhiannon> Heh
<wendyd> i know I harp on this, it's just the way my mind works but... what's the point of presenting at conferences? what's the ultimate goal?
<Rhiannon> I'd love to try to have another local NYC meeting.
<finicky> Whitepaper: perhaps have a group of people or a person per section spearhead an edit?
<Rhiannon> "Evangelizing to traditional game developers"
<Rhiannon> finicky: I honestly think splitting into sections might be the best way going forward.
<Karen> evangelizing sponsors!!!
<Rhiannon> But yes, revisions is a good goal, I think
<wendyd> then i think we should consider presenting at Marketing conferences, since those are the budgets ARGs get
<wendyd> but again - i think this would be a great topic for the evangelising committee (or whatever name they want)
<finicky> good idea Wendy
<Rhiannon> Well, how many of us GO to marketing conferences? :)
<Rhiannon> Trying to get people to speak, though, could be helpful.
<Rhiannon> When IS GDC?
<wendyd> and i think we shouldn't be afraid to let people be on as many committees as they want
<wendyd> March 5-9
<wendyd> if you want to present at it, you should start thinking about it for 2008
<wendyd> they plan way in advance
<Rhiannon> OK.
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<Karen> I don´t go to mkt conf but i know that if there where articles on mkt magazines about arg´s that would help a lot to evangelize the mkt community
<Rhiannon> In terms of actionable goals, then, let's settle on forming committees for each of the three goals, and punting a lot of the other decisions to those people.
<wendyd> i agree Rhiannon, I think we'll get more done if we can focus
<Rhiannon> Let's resolve to have another chat in about a month's time, call it the week after GDC, to assess how we're doing.
<Karen> we might need to produce the content ourselves and take them to the media outlets... i could easily do this in mexico-
<wendyd> great idea
<wendyd> great idea Karen
<colin> you can act on a second teir as well, by providing information to help write those articles
<Rhiannon> In the meanwhile, if anyone has a great idea they want the SIG to do, by all means volunteer to do it and begin work on it
<colin> there tends to be mis-conceptions in alot of press articles, the sig can have information to help make it clearer
<finicky> and add the business models info to the whitepaper section in the wiki
<wendyd> i think that would be a grea thing for the evangelism committee to work on - maybe a section for the website so it gets picked up on google
<Rhiannon> For my part, I am interesting in doing an updated edition of the methods and mechanics section of the white paper and publishing it eventually. But I'd also need somebody to present it for me if it needs to get presented.
<Karen> if you guys give me a contact person i can work on this issue...
<wendyd> a contact person?
<Karen> instead of e-mailing u all... i mean
<wendyd> oh, I think just email the main mailing list for now
<Rhiannon> yeah, that should be fine
<Rhiannon> I'll be glad to see the traffic...
<Karen> someone who´s interested in putting the material together with me to send to media outlets..
<wendyd> eventually it'll go to the "evangelism" mailing list or whatever
<finicky> yeah, sorry I haven't answered your email Karen
<Karen> ok
<colin> anymore issues that need to be addressed? it's getting late for some people...
<Rhiannon> I think... that's about it, unless someone else has a burning issue
<Karen> no prob
<catherwood> good job! agenda items touched on in under two hours
<Rhiannon> Hah
<Rhiannon> Thanks
<Rhiannon> OK, I know open the floor to random discussion!
<Rhiannon> I'll stop logging from here, though.
<Rhiannon> (Unless there's disagreement?)
<catherwood> my log will continue for as long as i'm here
<Rhiannon> er, NOW open the floor, yeesh
<Rhiannon> OK. Log off for me
<catherwood> may i suggest that not just the log gets posted, but accompany it with a *summary*
IRC log ended Sat Feb 03 19:55:37 2007
